Migrating to a better communication tool
I personally wouldn't mind using a forum instead.
Another downside of this mailing list is that it doesn't really play nice with DKIM/DMARC, at least in my experience.
How about a subreddit (or private subreddit)? reddit.com/r/esdiscuss, reddit.com/r/esdiscuss is available.
Some prior art for high quality communities where language authors hang around: r/scala reddit.com/r/scala, r/haskell reddit.com/r/haskell (I’m sure there are more).
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On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Sebastian Malton <sebastian at malton.name> wrote:
I propose something list how rust does it. They have a git repo for RFCs and that allows people to to star it or just follow the ones that they want to follow.
You can do that with the github repos used by TC39 proposals.
This thread isn't about proposals/RFCs, it's about moving the general conversations in es-discuss away from email into Something Else.
But again, this has all been discussed. I don't see anything in that thread about whether it was actually discussed at the July 2015 meeting(s) as Brendan Eich suggested; I don't find anything relevant in the meeting notes for all three meetings if I search for "es-discuss", "email", "mailing", or "discourse".
-- T.J. Crowder
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Claude Pache <claude.pache at gmail.com> wrote:
Previous discussion:
esdiscuss.org/topic/move-es-discuss-to-discuss-webplatform-org
TLDR, that thread raises several issues
- email requires browser use. This was later acknowledged as ironic, but there was pushback on account that standards should require few prerequisites to access. HTTP was listed as one prereq and reading between the lines, account systems whose TOS insist on real names or age claims.
- long term archival survival is a requirement. email archiving is well understood and independent of vendor survival
- fora make it easier to mute specific threads. Means in specific email clients discussed.
- fora make it easier to ignore users, and set digest periods.
- we can have both: es-discourse.com
- ECMA could host. There was laughter
requires browser use
Nope. Both Discourse + NodeBB allow the ability to use them as a mailing list. Thus, they require nothing more to use than the current system. (You require a browser to sign up, but mailing lists here require the same thing as well).
long term archival
I would argue it is significantly simpler with a forum as opposed to emails. For NodeBB something like the following should be used:
mongoexport --db nodebb --out dump.json
JSON being a significantly more supported format than the mail format.
muting can be done in clients
Can't ignore by tag and my clients don't support it. So what if this is just the same? We've discussed numerous other advantages it would provide
we can have both
I honestly think having both forum and mailing list will just result in disjointed conversations. They either need to mirror each other or we need to use just one.
If hosting is an issue, then I'd be willing to provide funding / host it myself. Any concerns about it going down could be sorted just with a daily cron job to back everything up to some publicly accessible dump hosted by another party.
On 26/07/2017 13:53:12, T.J. Crowder <tj.crowder at farsightsoftware.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Sebastian Malton <sebastian at malton.name [mailto:sebastian at malton.name]> wrote:
I propose something list how rust does it. They have a git repo for RFCs and that allows people to to star it or just follow the ones that they want to follow.
You can do that with the github repos used by TC39 proposals.
This thread isn't about proposals/RFCs, it's about moving the general conversations in es-discuss away from email into Something Else.
But again, this has [all been discussed][1]. I don't see anything in that thread about whether it was actually discussed at the July 2015 meeting(s) as Brendan Eich suggested; I don't find anything relevant in the meeting notes for all three meetings if I search for "es-discuss", "email", "mailing", or "discourse".
-- T.J. Crowder
[1]: esdiscuss.org/topic/move-es-discuss-to-discuss-webplatform-org [esdiscuss.org/topic/move-es-discuss-to-discuss-webplatform-org] _______________________________________________ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss at mozilla.org, mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es
Previous discussion:
I argued there for using Github issues in the TC39 account and covered every concern brought up. I'll point out it's trivial to use github's API to convert all of the mailing list into individual issues.
Also I've noticed people don't know how mailing lists work. (This should be obvious glancing at any topic brought up). I regularly still get people sending me emails and they don't CC things correctly. If I would hazard a guess there has been hundreds of lost comments from people replying to the mailing list wrong.
That said TC39 would have to decide on this among themselves and they seem indifferent. There's also a common theme among mailing list communities that it keeps the low-effort comments out compared to Github, Discourse, and numerous other platforms.
If it wasn't for esdiscuss.org to view these mailing list I'm not sure I'd even follow these discussions myself. I find it hilarious that using google and searching site:esdiscuss.org is the easiest way to find old threads though. No wonder this thread was made. OP probably couldn't find all the old discussions.
On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Brandon Andrews < warcraftthreeft at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Previous discussion:
esdiscuss.org/topic/meta-proposal-switch-es- discuss-from-a-mailing-list-to-using-the-tc39-github- issue-tracker-for-discussion
I argued there for using Github issues in the TC39 account and covered every concern brought up. I'll point out it's trivial to use github's API to convert all of the mailing list into individual issues.
How do I get all issues?
Also I've noticed people don't know how mailing lists work. (This should be obvious glancing at any topic brought up). I regularly still get people sending me emails and they don't CC things correctly. If I would hazard a guess there has been hundreds of lost comments from people replying to the mailing list wrong.
sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue.
How do I get all issues?
How to read the mailing list thread by thread? Same way es-discuss does using their tool: esdiscuss/pipermail. Then if one wanted to create an issue for each thread they'd use: developer.github.com/v3/issues/#create-an-issue and for the replies: developer.github.com/v3/issues/comments/#create-a-comment The biggest issue with this is the API is rate limited. It's trivial to be whitelisted by github when migrating issues so TC39 would have no real issue rapidly creating the issues and comments if they talked to them first.
Granted this might need to be cleaned up either by automated changes to clean up quotes and code or manually if one is bored enough. It would be similar to how esdiscuss.org allowed people to edit posts to clean up formatting so it followed github markup.
sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue.
No, as in people just open up their email clients and send a message to just the person they're replying to rather than to es-discuss at mozilla.org. Like they don't know that for everyone to see their reply that it has to go to the mailing list email also. You can see this in old threads where people will reply to people quoting them and the quoted message is nowhere in the mailing list. It's kind of sad really since some of these people just want to provide feedback but their responses are lost forever.
On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Brandon Andrews < warcraftthreeft at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
How do I get all issues?
How to read the mailing list thread by thread? Same way es-discuss does using their tool: esdiscuss/pipermail. Then if one wanted to create an issue for each thread they'd use: developer.github.com/v3/issues/#create-an-issue and for the replies: developer.github.com/v3/issues/comments/#create-a-comment The biggest issue with this is the API is rate limited. It's trivial to be whitelisted by github when migrating issues so TC39 would have no real issue rapidly creating the issues and comments if they talked to them first.
Granted this might need to be cleaned up either by automated changes to clean up quotes and code or manually if one is bored enough. It would be similar to how esdiscuss.org allowed people to edit posts to clean up formatting so it followed github markup.
Yes, but then I have to visit each issue occasionally in order to make a comment and/or watch an issue instead of just having it show up.
sqlite fixed their list so it doesn't come in from X person and Y person but only from the list so it only goes back to their list... sounds like a configuration issue.
No, as in people just open up their email clients and send a message to just the person they're replying to rather than to es-discuss at mozilla.org. Like they don't know that for everyone to see their reply that it has to go to the mailing list email also. You can see this in old threads where people will reply to people quoting them and the quoted message is nowhere in the mailing list. It's kind of sad really since some of these people just want to provide feedback but their responses are lost forever.
Exactly, the only thing to respond to in sqlite mails is the mailing list.
Yes, but then I have to visit each issue occasionally in order to make a comment and/or watch an issue instead of just having it show up.
On Github you can watch a whole repository and in your notification settings configure it to send you an email whenever a new issue is produced. This is in addition to watching an issue and receiving further notifications. You also get notifications if someone uses @name in a comment which is useful if someone thinks you might be interested or need your input on an issue. This fits well with how most people use issue/ticket systems. I'd say it's very rare for one to want email notifications for every comment ever made on a system since that's usually tied to a phone-based notification. (I've personally never subscribed to a mailing list due to the volume of posts, but I understand some people do read everything).
Hey everyone, I was referred to this conversation by a member of your community and I wanted to drop in and say hello. I hope I’m not running afoul of any house rules :)
Moving from a mailing list format to a forum is certainly going to be an abrupt change for many in your community, and it is definitely not a decision to be made lightly. However, the good news is that there are definitely some fantastic new entrants to the forum space that will allow your community to thrive in a familiar (yet novel!) atmosphere.
To address some comments from late last week:
… the ability to use them as a mailing list
NodeBB does support this via our Mandrill plugin, although it has been awhile since we’ve had a chance to implement it with any of our managed installs. As you can imagine, not many customers are looking to maintain an active mailing list and a forum at the same time. We’d be interested in doing this kind of integration with the SendGrid plugin, actually…
mute and digest periods
The key shift from a mailing list to a forum is that you’d be approaching topics in more of a “supermarket” style -- browsing for topics that interest you, as opposed to a constant incoming stream of messages that need active curation. In terms of muting topics, you can control notification and visibility at the topic level, but the real advantages come from subdividing discussions into interest categories and controlling notification preferences at the category level.
cost of hosting
We’ve discussed this internally and we’d be interested in hosting ES Discuss ourselves, as part of our efforts to contribute back to the open-source community that has been so good to us over the years. It’s part of a new initiative (and I use that term fairly loosely) to support more open-source projects in order to foster discussion and build community.
Finally, I am especially struck by the fact that there are issues with mailing lists and messages not being properly propagated back to the list. It’s this kind of curation that forums are especially good for, as they’re centralised in that manner. My hope is that anyone migrating from a mailing-list type of community will see increased adoption and engagement from members both old and new. Of course, I’m sure there are many more questions, so I’ll try my best to be around and see if we can help convince you that forums are the way to go.
Thanks,
Julian, Co-Founder, NodeBB Inc.
Thought I'd move the topic of a new communication tool to it's own thread. So that it doesn't pollute the (already polluted) removal of language features thread.
I took agree with Mark, I think it's time to move away from a mailing list and the obvious choice for discussions like this is a forum. Discourse is one option, but I'd also like to put our NodeBB[0] as another option.
Thoughts of how it might be better than the current mailing list:
- Doesn't pollute my inbox, option to subscribe and unsubscribe to particular threads.
- Stops replies from showing up on some mail clients (puu.sh/wThmq/ae276dd806.png)
- Universal formatting. esdiscuss.org seems to break formatting sometimes (or put it in an attachement).
Negatives:
- People who already have a good system setup for mailing lists will have to get used to working with a forum system.
- Will require either a OAuth account (Github perhaps?) or an extra username and password.
[0] NodeBB/NodeBB I hope more people read and search esdiscuss.org [esdiscuss.org]/ and engage with history instead of coming as if to a blank slate.
In all fairness, es-discuss is rather ancient in the way it works. I personally would recommend es-discuss coming up with a better way to keep track of its threads. The current setup is rather confusing, imo. FWIW, I personally would recommend Discourse [www.discourse.org]. I agree with you on the same topics coming up constantly though.